Curse

Zodiac Meteor · Jan 10, 2009, 06:30 AM // 06:30

/remove cripple

gg

Wish Swiftdeath · Jan 10, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

too bad they didn't do it right and in turn buffed it in areas.

-PS now goes underneath spirit bond
-Cripple duration is long enough to pull off the chain but not enough to be able to foul feast/plague send it back to them, one of the viable counters in TA

It was neither the damage or the cripple duration that was the problem with PS, it was the recharge.A simple change to 6-8 recharge would have fully balanced this skill, yet Izzy once again shows his ability to find a problem skill and yet still fail to see where the problem lies within it

QFT, any moron could see it was the recharge...

HawkofStorms · Jan 10, 2009, 07:31 AM // 07:31

True enough. If you can still execute the chain, then it doesn't really nerf anything. Of course, if you make the recharge too long, then it basically goes back to before and becomes completely unviable (why run an elite with a longer recharge then golden pheonix strike).
I still think the best nerf would have been a decrease in damage, a longer 2s cast time (to allow for interupting to be more viable), and an increase in energy to 10 (which would really put a lot more pressure on these sins ability to function).

Still, the fact of the matter is this skill is only OP in unorganized PvP. Any monk worth his weight can get the cripple removed and ruin the chain or any other prot skill. Its not like its a quarterknocking build.

LifesRestorer · Jan 10, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

True enough. If you can still execute the chain, then it doesn't really nerf anything. Of course, if you make the recharge too long, then it basically goes back to before and becomes completely unviable

The broken-ness of this skill comes from the rediculous amount of bar compression it gives.
[palm strike][trampling ox][falling spider][twisting fangs][EXTRA DUAL HERE]
This is the standard for each and every PS chain at the moment.

If we look at what it has, thats 3 dual attacks that can pulled off only using 5 skills. not even 12345678 SP sins had that sort of power, and they had to devote a whole bar to doing their job, and it had a 20 second recharge! This build is rediculously broken and skill has room for 3 utility skills (2 if you count res sig)

Palm strike counts as an offhand and a lead as you can skip straight to it, and is short enough in duration to be used twice in the same chain. not only this, but it's unblockable, unblindable and does quite alot of damage.

A change to the recharge would remove the usage of it being able to compress 3 skills into one while still being viable as it is an unblockable skip to an offhand attack that does big damage and an extremely good condition.

SOF · Jan 10, 2009, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Still OP.
Recharge 6 or 8 seconds then it'll be an improvement.

ensoriki · Jan 11, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Why not just Fix the dam L-O-D mechanic crap or nuke Trampling Ox, and we could all be on our way.
Hell even if you put Palm Strike inline ...could I still have the above please?

Quote:

I still think the best nerf would have been a decrease in damage, a longer 2s cast time (to allow for interupting to be more viable), and an increase in energy to 10 (which would really put a lot more pressure on these sins ability to function).

Time to give thanks to some random Diety that your not doing the game.
2s Cast Time?
WTF is a sin doing with a 2s cast time attack?
Why not just jump on the bandwagon and be all "Recharge increase".
Seriously a Touch Skill with a 2 second cast time?
Oh well that works

credit · Jan 11, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

was this update a joke, i can't figure it out?

Skyy High · Jan 11, 2009, 07:27 AM // 07:27

You cannot make the cripple last for a short enough period of time that it wouldn't be possible to get Trampling Ox off. You can, however, make it short enough that the sin has to focus on one target and can't keep two people crippled permanently, and that's what they did.

Comparing this build to SP sins is silly. That build had shadowstep and snare on a 20 second timer, which is what made it absurdly powerful and annoying: the ability to instagib any un-protted target in range at will. An assassin with this, on the other hand, is absurdly easy to see coming, and likewise easy to prot, blind, cripple, etc. A comparison of the number of dual attacks used is also irrelevant; 2 duals or 3, the SP sin build killed its target in one chain flat, and when BoA was still available it did it far faster too. The only advantage this build has over the old SP sin is that, if the sin is hexed and blinded, he can still use an unblockable cripple touch skill. The entire combo is on the 15 second recharge of Twisting Fangs, and if a sin really wants he can spam the first three attacks every 8 seconds, but that's 15/8 = 1.875 energy / second. 4 pips is 1.333 energy / second, so spamming the three skill chain alone (which won't kill a thing by itself) is going to drain you. The point is, the low recharges here don't mean that this chain can actually be pumped out every 8 seconds. PS sins are nowhere close to the OP-ness of the old SP build, and really the only reason they're anything special at all is because they're the first sin dagger build in ages that doesn't absolutely blow in high end PvP.

hurric · Jan 11, 2009, 09:34 AM // 09:34

first time for me to say this but Izzy is an idiot. 100% of teams in HA look alike.

byteme! · Jan 11, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by hurric

first time for me to say this but Izzy is an idiot. 100% of teams in HA look alike.

So after 44 months nothing has changed. What else is new?

LifesRestorer · Jan 11, 2009, 12:42 PM // 12:42

[QUOTE=Skyy High;4442538]

Quote:

Comparing this build to SP sins is silly. That build had shadowstep and snare on a 20 second timer, which is what made it absurdly powerful and annoying

you want a shadowstep? take death's charge.

Quote:

A comparison of the number of dual attacks used is also irrelevant; 2 duals or 3, the SP sin build killed its target in one chain flat,

The nerf to BLS was a direct nerf to the ability to have 2 easy requirement skills that skip straight to a dual attack as it was too powerful
This bar has the ability to use 3 duals in 5 skills. how powerful do you think that makes it?
Upon testing in GToB, a sin using 13 crit and 14 dagger can kill a target with a simple chain of [palm strike][trampling ox][falling spider][twisting fangs][palm strike]
killing a target in just over 4 seconds.

Quote:

The only advantage this build has over the old SP sin is that, if the sin is hexed and blinded, he can still use an unblockable cripple touch skill.

And other that it can match it in every single other aspect

Quote:

The entire combo is on the 15 second recharge of Twisting Fangs, and if a sin really wants he can spam the first three attacks every 8 seconds, but that's 15/8 = 1.875 energy / second. 4 pips is 1.333 energy / second, so spamming the three skill chain alone (which won't kill a thing by itself) is going to drain you

You are forgetting an extremely important aspect: critical strikes alot of a sin's energy management comes from it's critical strikes, and in the case of a PS sin it can spec 13, even 14 if it wants.

Quote:

PS sins are nowhere close to the OP-ness of the old SP build, and really the only reason they're anything special at all is because they're the first sin dagger build in ages that doesn't absolutely blow in high end PvP.

That's because there is no middle ground for a sin. it can't be a frontline because it has paper armour and no shield, so it is stuck to being an instagib character - a broken character. All of the instagib builds got nerfed, so people stopped running sins. Palm strike brought it back, and with it (until nerf) an extremely powerful condition that could be spammed at will at long durations.

Skyy High · Jan 11, 2009, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

you want a shadowstep? take death's charge.

You want to run a spike build with a 45 second recharge, go right ahead.

Quote:

The nerf to BLS was a direct nerf to the ability to have 2 easy requirement skills that skip straight to a dual attack as it was too powerful
This bar has the ability to use 3 duals in 5 skills. how powerful do you think that makes it?

A kill is a kill. The power of a sin spike is not defined by how many duals it can get off, but how easy it is to prot against. PS sins are far easier to prot against than SP sins, because the PS sin can't shadowstep every 20 seconds.

Quote:

Upon testing in GToB, a sin using 13 crit and 14 dagger can kill a target with a simple chain of [palm strike][trampling ox][falling spider][twisting fangs][palm strike]
killing a target in just over 4 seconds.

SP sins killed in 4 attacks, under BoA and later some other IAS skills. That amounts to a full second less than a PS sin.

Quote:

And other that it can match it in every single other aspect

Eh, no. The build's mobility, the key to the WTFOP-ness of the SP sin, is not even close. It's a frontliner with a 5 skill attack chain; give a derv or a war full reign to hit you un-protted with 5 attacks and they'll kill you too. "Oh, but the war would be protted against or blinded," you say? Guess what, do the same to the sin.

Quote:

You are forgetting an extremely important aspect: critical strikes alot of a sin's energy management comes from it's critical strikes, and in the case of a PS sin it can spec 13, even 14 if it wants.

Yes, I did forget that. If you crit on both attacks in that 3 skill chain, you'll gain 6 energy, reducing the cost of the chain to 11/8 = 1.375, which is still greater than your inherent 1.333 energy regen. And, of course, you're not going to be hitting a critical every time. If the sin just spams his skills on recharge, he's not going to be gaining energy, he's not going to kill anything, and he's not going to be able to pull off his chain again. He needs to stop the chain to gain energy, which is what I was saying: he can't just spam the skills at their listed recharge. Increase the energy cost of PS to 10, that'll really destroy the bad sins who spam it on recharge.

Quote:

That's because there is no middle ground for a sin. it can't be a frontline because it has paper armour and no shield, so it is stuck to being an instagib character - a broken character. All of the instagib builds got nerfed, so people stopped running sins. Palm strike brought it back, and with it (until nerf) an extremely powerful condition that could be spammed at will at long durations.

I'm not arguing against that. The point I was arguing against was you claiming this build is more powerful than an SP sin simply because it could get 3 duals in as opposed to 2, when it's inferior in every other department. Don't forget, the old SP sin also had access to unnerfed DP, Recall, Shadow's Haste, and being able to teleport past compass range. This build is powerful, but easily protted against and therefore no more powerful than a derv spike or a WE war.

Arkantos · Jan 11, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

QFT, any moron could see it was the recharge...

And any moron can see that palm strike is not nearly as powerful as it was before the nerf.

draxynnic · Jan 12, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by super strokey

one skill... thats it? A month well spent i guess...

Well, to be fair, in the last month they've had the Wintersday event to implement and remove, which did come with new quests this year. They also have the Canthan New Year coming up, for which they may actually be planning to add new content instead of simply rehashing the last. Plus, it seems likely that the people at ANet may also actually want to visit families during that time...

Ergo, it doesn't seem unreasonable for the update to have been a small one. It's also possible, under the circumstances, that the change to Palm Strike has been made to test whether that is enough and that if it still turns out to be OP it'll be tapped again with the nerf stick in the next update.

What Now · Jan 12, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

OMG GAIZ Y NERF IT CAN BE C\OUNTERD WIT D-SHOTZ

In a decent wording, counterability doesn't stop it being overpowered. I could cancel Palm Strike if I wanted to - what then?

Le sigh lemme put this into phrasing your 3 year old pea brain can comprehend then maybe you'll think twice before quoting me.

If people all hoped onto the bandwagon about what was overpowered like you just did TOUCHERS WOULDN'T EXIST. It's basically an elite touch in all honesty, pull Palm Strike out of the chain and it's by no means overpowered alone.

8 man cripple? No RC, shutdown, or interrupt? Or are people just that fail?

EVERYTHING run in the balanced meta can counter these sins which means people are just bad. Problem seems to be the constant kd from skipping lead attacks and taking shortcuts throughout the entire bar same with SP and BB and so on but instead of fixing the chain Anet nerfs the elite. Most the pressure comes from SoH or Ray/SH on you while you're down if you have guardian on but a lot of midline support and hexes/pressure remained untouched.

Like I said right after the update, this update changed nothing because it nerfed an insignificant skill which is why you still see it run left and right.

Now go to school and learn2think for yourself and comprehend without just OMG THEY THINK ITS OP THEN IT MUST BE AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES MUST BE A SIN.

I'm a monk, never played palm strike, I don't die to palm because I'm not bad. Most the damage even in HB comes from aoe when you're down and once again SH and SoH that gets through. So if you wanna do something productive nerf smites or tease on heroes and stop acting like you got anything done.

Now go start a topic about how touchers being unblockable and proting spamming 60 damage skills are OVERPOWERED and DIVERSION/DSHOT/KITING to make it useless no way changes its overpowered state. I'll be there for the lols. With an RC on every team saying cripple is overpowered...

Painbringer · Jan 12, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

[apply poison] [palm strike] [twisting fangs] [signet of deadly corruption] [signet of toxic shock]

Just for fun I am going to try this

moriz · Jan 12, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by What Now

Le sigh lemme put this into phrasing your 3 year old pea brain can comprehend then maybe you'll think twice before quoting me.

If people all hoped onto the bandwagon about what was overpowered like you just did TOUCHERS WOULDN'T EXIST. It's basically an elite touch in all honesty, pull Palm Strike out of the chain and it's by no means overpowered alone.

8 man cripple? No RC, shutdown, or interrupt? Or are people just that fail?

EVERYTHING run in the balanced meta can counter these sins which means people are just bad. Problem seems to be the constant kd from skipping lead attacks and taking shortcuts throughout the entire bar same with SP and BB and so on but instead of fixing the chain Anet nerfs the elite. Most the pressure comes from SoH or Ray/SH on you while you're down if you have guardian on but a lot of midline support and hexes/pressure remained untouched.

Like I said right after the update, this update changed nothing because it nerfed an insignificant skill which is why you still see it run left and right.

Now go to school and learn2think for yourself and comprehend without just OMG THEY THINK ITS OP THEN IT MUST BE AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES MUST BE A SIN.

I'm a monk, never played palm strike, I don't die to palm because I'm not bad. Most the damage even in HB comes from aoe when you're down and once again SH and SoH that gets through. So if you wanna do something productive nerf smites or tease on heroes and stop acting like you got anything done.

Now go start a topic about how touchers being unblockable and proting spamming 60 damage skills are OVERPOWERED and DIVERSION/DSHOT/KITING to make it useless no way changes its overpowered state. I'll be there for the lols. With an RC on every team saying cripple is overpowered...

if you claim that you play absolutely perfectly all the time, and your opponents play like tards, then your argument is valid.

but since i believe you are nowear near stupid enough to claim that, i'll just say your argument is bogus.

Reverend Dr · Jan 12, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Shadow Prison

You really aren't remembering shadow prison the way it actually was. I'm not saying it wasn't overpowered and didn't deserve the nerf, but it certainly was not as gamebreaking as you are describing it.

Shadow prison sins did not kill in 4 attacks. It usually took two more auto attacks afterwards combined with degen and no assistance. Only time it worked in 4 hits either involved someone with DP or for some reason low health.

Shadow Prison sins were really just not that big of a powerhouse in 8v8 play. Only in lower arenas or skirmishes were they terribly powerful. They saw play in 4v4, the then 6v6 HA, or on splits in GvG, never in 8v8 play.

What shadow prison sins were good at doing was quickly unloading on a target. The reason they seemed so powerful then was that people then actually cared about their target rather than just c-space. If people are playing like tards and c-spacing their palm chains, then they are not that hard to beat. (editors note: "and c-spacing their palm chains" should be removed from that last sentence.)

wtfisgoingon · Jan 12, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

QFT, any moron could see it was the recharge...

recharge my ass..
you want to CRY about something worth crying about? cry about wounding strike, at least dervishes are in high end pvp.
stop crying about sin skills, their skills are honestly crappy and needs major buffs, not nerfs.

Some_guy · Jan 12, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quick question -about the PS chain not being spammable, would zealous daggers fix the problem?